XFL expansion

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GDAWG
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Re: XFL expansion

Post by GDAWG »

Sykotyk wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:05 pm
GDAWG wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:53 pm
Sykotyk wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:20 pm First, this is entirely if the USFL sticks around. Until then, and as the USFL goes to home markets for games, I could see the likelihood that there won't be two teams in a market like Houston is currently (once Houston gets placed at home).

Big cities (new or long since second tier football leagues):
Denver
Chicago
Ohio Big 3 city
Atlanta
Raleigh
Hartford

Yes, I include Hartford as a 'big city'. If they don't want to try again with NJ, I could see Hartford being the 'New England area substitute' team. A big city by itself that would really want a team. Not too far from NY or Boston for fans. But the big thing would be what to call it. NY? Nope. New England? That kills NY interest. Hartford? That flatlines interest from NYC and Boston, but would still probably get good support.

Denver had a great run with the Gold and gets overlooked every time a new league is formed. Why? Their weather may have bad storms, but Denver is usually pretty temperate by February on non-storm days. It's just a risk to take. Plus, who wouldn't love a snow game. There's Dicks Sporting Good Park in Commerce City, there's Mile High, obviously, as well as maybe getting creative and seeing if Boulder would host.

Atlanta, I think, is one of those that would work if the right situation. AAF had the market so XFL 2.0 didn't even consider it. Same as what happened with Orlando. A market that 'should' work for XFL 3.0. Raleigh puts you in the growing carolina territory. But away from Charlotte and the Panthers dominated football sphere. Raleigh-Durham has some options for host stadiums that are all large enough.

Chicago is always an issue. It helps for TV, but the tradeoff is not a lot will attend, especially at Soldier Field due to traffic, parking etc. But for TV, it's a big deal.

And lastly is Ohio. One of Cleveland, Columbus, or Cincinnati. There's the old Historic Crew Stadium that now has turf in Columbus that would be perfect for XFL. Or Cincinnati at either Paycor or Nippert (doubtful TQL would be interested). Cleveland has fewer options, mainly just FES, but there's also preempting the Canton USFL experiment by putting a team there or Akron and calling it 'Ohio' or 'Cleveland' and just winging it.

For smaller cities:

Omaha
Sacramento
San Diego
Tucson
Boise
Fargo
Little Rock
Norfolk
Rochester

First, I'll mention that San Diego is bigger, but on a sporting landscape, it's down to one major team. They've got the facility now and weren't that bad with the Fleet. But the big issue is the facility.

Omaha had great success with the UFL/FXFL teams there. But the leagues dragged them down and slowly dwindled the fan interest in a dying product. Stadium is an issue as it would be a smallish baseball stadium most likely.

Sacramento is a possibility. With the likelihood of the Republic never joining MLS, the possibility of playing on their field or at Sacramento State is a possibility. City only has one other major league team. Gives you a team in Northern California. But maybe only get viewers from the bay area, but might turn a lot if you went with Sacramento name. If you did Northern California (NorCal) and SoCal for two teams, you might develop a regional rivalry in the state that doesn't matter where the teams are playing as long as people just tune in to root for their half of the state.

Tucson is a similar thought. Everything is in the Phoenix area except U of A. Could play there, and be the 'big pro team' for Tucson and not glom onto the Phoenix market is get overlooked. Call yourself Arizona and you won't develop a regional bias as the team still represents all of Arizona.

Boise is definitely a reach. But stock them full of BSU alums and play on the blue turf and you'll at least get a novelty factor. Again, it's not so much drawing their fans as it is giving the XFL another weekly game to draw TV viewers for a TV contract. And we know MWC games do get ratings when they're on unapposed to other college games. Same could hold true for a Boise/Idaho team.

Fargo is in a Similar vein as Boise. Pro sport deprived area (though mostly Vikings fans), that has a huge following for their NDSU Bison, who are striving to be taken seriously at the FCS level. The state is growing still from oil, though the western end of the state. A cross state drive is not ridiculous to sports fans in North Dakota. It would be the state's first real major team aside from some junior league hockey, summer league baseball, and one single unaffiliated minor league baseball team. Again, this is more 'schedule filler' than 'growth market'. But fans on TV don't really care much who is playing. Just that they're playing.

Little Rock has the stadium. Definitely need to rely on the whole state and not just the Little Rock area. But would be a natural rival to the Texas teams. Especially Arlington. Also, close to Arlington if you're still operating as a base city system.

Norfolk wouldn't be the first time a secondary league tried to establish in Norfolk. UFL did. Norfolk State's Dick Price Stadium would be sufficient. The southeast VA market is huge and sprawling including Norfolk, Chesapeake, Virginia Beach, Hampton Roads, Newport News, and even Williamsburg and Suffolk. But it doesn't have a central identity and 'point zero' the way every other metropolitan area does. ABA had the Virginia Squires who played mostly in Norfolk, but did barnstorm around the state. It has a huge military presence and could be a 'overlooked metro area'. If NFL can find space for New Orleans and Buffalo, XFL could fit comfortably with Norfolk and SEVA.

Lastly, Rochester. It's northern, and you're prone to snowstorms for much of the season. But it has a stadium that is mostly sitting empty in the 13ish k range. A market that just as AAA baseball and AHL hockey. Not far from Buffalo to still attract rabid fans, and Syracuse to the east. Could regionalize and just be "New York" or "New York State" or go Golden State's route and be the Empire State (whatevers).

There's a lot more obviously. But these are the ones I think are most in line with the XFL not counting the USFL markets. Of which, I'd say Birmingham, Memphis, Detroit, and New Orleans are the most notable that have stadiums or best markets. Pittsburgh would be nice but without Acrisure Stadium involved, there's nowhere to play. And Canton is not the answer if you really want a home stadium.
Attendance at Soldier Field might not be a problem anymore once the Bears move out to Arlington Heights, because at 61,500, I could see Soldier Field undergoing another major renovation to reduce the seating capacity by half to 30,000 for the Chicago Fire. Now I don't know how many fans the XFL Chicago team would get if Soldier Field was reduced to 30,000.

Unfortunately that's still probably a few years away. A 30k stadium for the Fire would be perfect. The problem with Soldier Field is even then, the parking isn't near the stadium. Because of its location, most parking is further away which means a lot of walking and that's a big turnoff to people today to attend a game.
Likely one of the reasons they are moving to Arlington Heights, so that parking can be closer to the stadium.
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Sykotyk
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Re: XFL expansion

Post by Sykotyk »

GDAWG wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 5:52 pm
Likely one of the reasons they are moving to Arlington Heights, so that parking can be closer to the stadium.
And the Bears will own the surrounding areas for mixed use development. Bars, clubs, restaurants, hotels, etc. There's nothing around Soldier Field because of the location along the lake in the parkland area there. The Bears only moved to Soldier Field because in the NFL-AFL merger there was a requirement for all teams to play in 60000 seat stadiums. So they had to move permanently from Wrigley.
GDAWG
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Re: XFL expansion

Post by GDAWG »

Also, Chicago's history of Alt football has not been good, so attendance will probably be closer to the Guardians (both 2020 and 2023 versions) than the Battlehawks. Not sure of the attendance for the Chicago Fire.
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Re: XFL expansion

Post by Tank55 »

The next time the Guardians outdraw the Enforcers' worst crowd will be the first.
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Coffeeeyes
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Re: XFL expansion

Post by Coffeeeyes »

League needs to solidify and win the fight against the USFL before even considering expansion. Relocation makes the league look weak and flip floppy on fanbases, look at the poor reaction at Tampa going to Memphis in the USFL. I do think the league slipped up heavily with Vegas and everyone including the league knows it but RBC wants a league in Vegas and they’re the billionaire investor here.

I don’t understand CFL finances well but as a league they consistently get 20k plus attendance, have private ownership for teams so the league doesn’t front money and they have a bigger pool and history to pay their players but as a league they’re sat at 9 teams and are struggling to expand to 10 because financial uncertainty. You have to think the XFL ownership group is seeing how that league handles their finances and seeing how an additional team means

-More rent for a stadium
-More money for a full team
-More money spent on concessions
-More money on advertising in that market
-More money on buses and flights
-More money on staff
-Countless other nitpicky little things that add up

XFL’s broadcasting deal isn’t going to get them more money if they’re in San Diego or LA, the deal is already agreed. If they go to Chicago before they go back to renegotiation it could work but that’s 5 years from now. Expect the same markets until 2028, probably will see Vegas leave Cashman that’s about it
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Re: XFL expansion

Post by XLL »

Here you go Red Bull Stadium. New York Team, NY Bombers
Rmbay
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Re: XFL expansion

Post by Rmbay »

Coffeeeyes wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:19 pm League needs to solidify and win the fight against the USFL before even considering expansion. Relocation makes the league look weak and flip floppy on fanbases, look at the poor reaction at Tampa going to Memphis in the USFL. I do think the league slipped up heavily with Vegas and everyone including the league knows it but RBC wants a league in Vegas and they’re the billionaire investor here.

I don’t understand CFL finances well but as a league they consistently get 20k plus attendance, have private ownership for teams so the league doesn’t front money and they have a bigger pool and history to pay their players but as a league they’re sat at 9 teams and are struggling to expand to 10 because financial uncertainty. You have to think the XFL ownership group is seeing how that league handles their finances and seeing how an additional team means

-More rent for a stadium
-More money for a full team
-More money spent on concessions
-More money on advertising in that market
-More money on buses and flights
-More money on staff
-Countless other nitpicky little things that add up

XFL’s broadcasting deal isn’t going to get them more money if they’re in San Diego or LA, the deal is already agreed. If they go to Chicago before they go back to renegotiation it could work but that’s 5 years from now. Expect the same markets until 2028, probably will see Vegas leave Cashman that’s about it
I would be very shocked if the prospect of expansion wasn't brought up in the broadcast negotiations and clauses agreed to that could escalate and vary depending on what markets they landed in.

In the end no expansion will probably happen without groups of investors/potential owners buying in. It's an endgame for both the XFL and the USFL, both with existing and new franchises.
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johnnyangryfuzzball
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Re: XFL expansion

Post by johnnyangryfuzzball »

Rmbay wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:07 pm
Coffeeeyes wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:19 pm League needs to solidify and win the fight against the USFL before even considering expansion. Relocation makes the league look weak and flip floppy on fanbases, look at the poor reaction at Tampa going to Memphis in the USFL. I do think the league slipped up heavily with Vegas and everyone including the league knows it but RBC wants a league in Vegas and they’re the billionaire investor here.

I don’t understand CFL finances well but as a league they consistently get 20k plus attendance, have private ownership for teams so the league doesn’t front money and they have a bigger pool and history to pay their players but as a league they’re sat at 9 teams and are struggling to expand to 10 because financial uncertainty. You have to think the XFL ownership group is seeing how that league handles their finances and seeing how an additional team means

-More rent for a stadium
-More money for a full team
-More money spent on concessions
-More money on advertising in that market
-More money on buses and flights
-More money on staff
-Countless other nitpicky little things that add up

XFL’s broadcasting deal isn’t going to get them more money if they’re in San Diego or LA, the deal is already agreed. If they go to Chicago before they go back to renegotiation it could work but that’s 5 years from now. Expect the same markets until 2028, probably will see Vegas leave Cashman that’s about it
I would be very shocked if the prospect of expansion wasn't brought up in the broadcast negotiations and clauses agreed to that could escalate and vary depending on what markets they landed in.

In the end no expansion will probably happen without groups of investors/potential owners buying in. It's an endgame for both the XFL and the USFL, both with existing and new franchises.
The other end-around is to set up a different legal entity (call it "Beta Acquico") for the expansion teams, license the XFL brand and sign an inter-"league" agreement allowing common scheduling, sign a separate broadcast agreement to get around ESPN's exclusive deal with the original Alpha Acquico, and go from there.

If there's a will, there's a way. The thing is, when would the XFL be in the position to expand? You are probably right: not until more investors—and trustworthy ones that do not have their own agendas (cough, Tom Dundon)—decide to lay their money down.
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Re: XFL expansion

Post by Rmbay »

johnnyangryfuzzball wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:40 pm
Rmbay wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:07 pm
Coffeeeyes wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:19 pm League needs to solidify and win the fight against the USFL before even considering expansion. Relocation makes the league look weak and flip floppy on fanbases, look at the poor reaction at Tampa going to Memphis in the USFL. I do think the league slipped up heavily with Vegas and everyone including the league knows it but RBC wants a league in Vegas and they’re the billionaire investor here.

I don’t understand CFL finances well but as a league they consistently get 20k plus attendance, have private ownership for teams so the league doesn’t front money and they have a bigger pool and history to pay their players but as a league they’re sat at 9 teams and are struggling to expand to 10 because financial uncertainty. You have to think the XFL ownership group is seeing how that league handles their finances and seeing how an additional team means

-More rent for a stadium
-More money for a full team
-More money spent on concessions
-More money on advertising in that market
-More money on buses and flights
-More money on staff
-Countless other nitpicky little things that add up

XFL’s broadcasting deal isn’t going to get them more money if they’re in San Diego or LA, the deal is already agreed. If they go to Chicago before they go back to renegotiation it could work but that’s 5 years from now. Expect the same markets until 2028, probably will see Vegas leave Cashman that’s about it
I would be very shocked if the prospect of expansion wasn't brought up in the broadcast negotiations and clauses agreed to that could escalate and vary depending on what markets they landed in.

In the end no expansion will probably happen without groups of investors/potential owners buying in. It's an endgame for both the XFL and the USFL, both with existing and new franchises.
The other end-around is to set up a different legal entity (call it "Beta Acquico") for the expansion teams, license the XFL brand and sign an inter-"league" agreement allowing common scheduling, sign a separate broadcast agreement to get around ESPN's exclusive deal with the original Alpha Acquico, and go from there.

If there's a will, there's a way. The thing is, when would the XFL be in the position to expand? You are probably right: not until more investors—and trustworthy ones that do not have their own agendas (cough, Tom Dundon)—decide to lay their money down.
Yeah, I'm thinking Season 3 at the earliest if they get there, and even that may be generous.

I do think one thing they may have going for them in attracting potential investors is the cache Rock has (particularly in the entertainment industry), but that's only going to get them in the door. They'll need to show some growth and not just potential growth. And hopefully they can attract enough to not have to rely on the Tom Dundon's of the world. That might take a few years at least.
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Re: XFL expansion

Post by Tuxedo Dragon »

They probably won't expand until they prove they can make money. Relocation is probably more likely. But they will probably try to grow the markets they are in.

I could see teams in San Diego or Oakland. As long as they can book a good stadium. Selfishly I would love Hartford but that might not be their first choice.
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