Semi-OT: Argos (possibly) finished in Toronto

XFL Football discussion.
laxtreme56
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Semi-OT: Argos (possibly) finished in Toronto

Post by laxtreme56 »

https://www.thestar.com/sports/football ... ronto.html

This is probably more speculative than fact, but rumors are MLSE may want out of the CFL. Toronto was the most gung-ho of CFL teams pushing for a merger worth the XFL, and we're rather quiet when those talks dissolved. Attendance has been atrocious, ratings are down from 2019, and the Toronto media has long since stopped caring.

My take: MLSE gives it one more year in the CFL, perhaps to see how the USFL season fares. At that point they either sell the team or forfeit the franchise back to the CFL. MLSE then joins one of the spring leagues, sans the Argos moniker, and gives Torontonians want they want (kinda) 4 down football.
MGB01
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Re: Semi-OT: Argos (possibly) finished in Toronto

Post by MGB01 »

Image

Maybe a little more telling in retrospect than a simple gaffe?
4th&long
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Re: Semi-OT: Argos (possibly) finished in Toronto

Post by 4th&long »

MGB01 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:07 am Image

Maybe a little more telling in retrospect than a simple gaffe?
:D :D :D
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Re: Semi-OT: Argos (possibly) finished in Toronto

Post by MGB01 »

What's even funnier about how that aged is that could be taken as either the Argos being omitted or following Kyle Lowry out of town
johnnyangryfuzzball
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Re: Semi-OT: Argos (possibly) finished in Toronto

Post by johnnyangryfuzzball »

I'm confused.

First of all, the Argonauts have been in Toronto for somewhere around 150 years. While that doesn't guarantee they'll stay around forever, just folding up shop like that would be a huge black eye to the league.

Second, it's well-known that TV partners want teams in the biggest markets as a condition of a TV deal. Toronto is the biggest media market in Canada. Yet MLSE's biggest stakeholders are the two media giants in Canada, Bell (TSN) and Rogers (Sportsnet)—and TSN is locked into the CFL through 2025. So why, knowing that it would devalue their own television product, would they eliminate the team? You may save a little money by not subsidizing the franchise, but you're already paying $50 million a year for the rights to the league as it is. Compared to the billions the NFL rights cost, that's a bargain, even when you factor in any losses incurred on the Argos! Viewer per viewer, there's a far greater ROI on the CFL than there is the NFL from the TV perspective.

Third, yes, technically there would still be a team in the Toronto metropolitan area—the Hamilton Tiger-Cats (disclaimer: I am a Ticats fan and have been since I picked up the games on a black-and-white rabbit ears as a teenager). Who are the Ticats' biggest rivals? The Argos. So all of a sudden, you deflate one of the biggest rivalries in the league.

Then you factor in: Montreal, one of the other big markets, just barely avoided collapse, which would be their third... and we have no idea how stable the ownership they scrambled to find really is. They could be another Glieberman (he was the guy who twice ran Ottawa into the ground). All of a sudden, you've completely destabilized the entire CFL. Then what?

All of a sudden, you're left with a bunch of small, mostly Western markets—one of whom, Winnipeg, is arguably operating illegally given its dubious ownership structure or lack thereof. As a serious professional league, the CFL would effectively be done. It'd be semi-pro, limping along on tradition.
4th&long
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Re: Semi-OT: Argos (possibly) finished in Toronto

Post by 4th&long »

johnnyangryfuzzball wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:57 pm I'm confused.

First of all, the Argonauts have been in Toronto for somewhere around 150 years. While that doesn't guarantee they'll stay around forever, just folding up shop like that would be a huge black eye to the league.

Second, it's well-known that TV partners want teams in the biggest markets as a condition of a TV deal. Toronto is the biggest media market in Canada. Yet MLSE's biggest stakeholders are the two media giants in Canada, Bell (TSN) and Rogers (Sportsnet)—and TSN is locked into the CFL through 2025. So why, knowing that it would devalue their own television product, would they eliminate the team? You may save a little money by not subsidizing the franchise, but you're already paying $50 million a year for the rights to the league as it is. Compared to the billions the NFL rights cost, that's a bargain, even when you factor in any losses incurred on the Argos! Viewer per viewer, there's a far greater ROI on the CFL than there is the NFL from the TV perspective.

Third, yes, technically there would still be a team in the Toronto metropolitan area—the Hamilton Tiger-Cats (disclaimer: I am a Ticats fan and have been since I picked up the games on a black-and-white rabbit ears as a teenager). Who are the Ticats' biggest rivals? The Argos. So all of a sudden, you deflate one of the biggest rivalries in the league.

Then you factor in: Montreal, one of the other big markets, just barely avoided collapse, which would be their third... and we have no idea how stable the ownership they scrambled to find really is. They could be another Glieberman (he was the guy who twice ran Ottawa into the ground). All of a sudden, you've completely destabilized the entire CFL. Then what?

All of a sudden, you're left with a bunch of small, mostly Western markets—one of whom, Winnipeg, is arguably operating illegally given its dubious ownership structure or lack thereof. As a serious professional league, the CFL would effectively be done. It'd be semi-pro, limping along on tradition.
Many of us said this from the start. There are 9 teams, 3 big markets, 3 OKC/Jax sized markets, and 3 sub 1mm markets. I posted that at time of XFL/CFL merger talk. How the country watches and where is not quite apparent but in general that's the #s.
So Agreeing with you that CFL need the Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver triple yatzee to stay relevant.

MLSE wants Argos to fail IMO and make a run at an NFL team. The CFL is in their way. XFL was a bridge to kill off 3 down FB for MLSE.

Having said that for a country about 11% the size of the USA (1/9th) and smaller than California Pop wise, they do get solid CFL TV numbers comparing to ratings for sports in USA.

https://3downnation.com/2021/11/26/wors ... fl-season/

Averaging 450-500k viewers per game. In the usa that would translate to 4-5mm. Their TV deal in Canada does not reflect the ratings #'s.
laxtreme56
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Re: Semi-OT: Argos (possibly) finished in Toronto

Post by laxtreme56 »

4th&long wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:47 am
johnnyangryfuzzball wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:57 pm I'm confused.

First of all, the Argonauts have been in Toronto for somewhere around 150 years. While that doesn't guarantee they'll stay around forever, just folding up shop like that would be a huge black eye to the league.

Second, it's well-known that TV partners want teams in the biggest markets as a condition of a TV deal. Toronto is the biggest media market in Canada. Yet MLSE's biggest stakeholders are the two media giants in Canada, Bell (TSN) and Rogers (Sportsnet)—and TSN is locked into the CFL through 2025. So why, knowing that it would devalue their own television product, would they eliminate the team? You may save a little money by not subsidizing the franchise, but you're already paying $50 million a year for the rights to the league as it is. Compared to the billions the NFL rights cost, that's a bargain, even when you factor in any losses incurred on the Argos! Viewer per viewer, there's a far greater ROI on the CFL than there is the NFL from the TV perspective.

Third, yes, technically there would still be a team in the Toronto metropolitan area—the Hamilton Tiger-Cats (disclaimer: I am a Ticats fan and have been since I picked up the games on a black-and-white rabbit ears as a teenager). Who are the Ticats' biggest rivals? The Argos. So all of a sudden, you deflate one of the biggest rivalries in the league.

Then you factor in: Montreal, one of the other big markets, just barely avoided collapse, which would be their third... and we have no idea how stable the ownership they scrambled to find really is. They could be another Glieberman (he was the guy who twice ran Ottawa into the ground). All of a sudden, you've completely destabilized the entire CFL. Then what?

All of a sudden, you're left with a bunch of small, mostly Western markets—one of whom, Winnipeg, is arguably operating illegally given its dubious ownership structure or lack thereof. As a serious professional league, the CFL would effectively be done. It'd be semi-pro, limping along on tradition.
Many of us said this from the start. There are 9 teams, 3 big markets, 3 OKC/Jax sized markets, and 3 sub 1mm markets. I posted that at time of XFL/CFL merger talk. How the country watches and where is not quite apparent but in general that's the #s.
So Agreeing with you that CFL need the Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver triple yatzee to stay relevant.

MLSE wants Argos to fail IMO and make a run at an NFL team. The CFL is in their way. XFL was a bridge to kill off 3 down FB for MLSE.

Having said that for a country about 11% the size of the USA (1/9th) and smaller than California Pop wise, they do get solid CFL TV numbers comparing to ratings for sports in USA.

https://3downnation.com/2021/11/26/wors ... fl-season/

Averaging 450-500k viewers per game. In the usa that would translate to 4-5mm. Their TV deal in Canada does not reflect the ratings #'s.
I'm not sure I agree with MLSE wanting the CFL to fail. If they did, then why bother buying the franchise and losing $10+ million a year. Nobody else was lining up to buy the Argos. The league would have had to run the team until another suck..er owner lined up. MLSE runs Toronto and they can't make the Argos work. The question is, do Torontonians dismiss the CFL because it's minor league or because it's 3 down, "funny" football? I honestly believe it's the latter. The AHL Toronto Marlies draw more than the league average, even with the most popular NHL team playing nearby. I think fans will support a minor 4 down league as it's closer to the game they know and love, the NFL, as opposed to a league that is watched primarily by the "boomer" crowd.
4th&long
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Re: Semi-OT: Argos (possibly) finished in Toronto

Post by 4th&long »

laxtreme56 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:14 pm
4th&long wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:47 am
johnnyangryfuzzball wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:57 pm I'm confused.

First of all, the Argonauts have been in Toronto for somewhere around 150 years. While that doesn't guarantee they'll stay around forever, just folding up shop like that would be a huge black eye to the league.

Second, it's well-known that TV partners want teams in the biggest markets as a condition of a TV deal. Toronto is the biggest media market in Canada. Yet MLSE's biggest stakeholders are the two media giants in Canada, Bell (TSN) and Rogers (Sportsnet)—and TSN is locked into the CFL through 2025. So why, knowing that it would devalue their own television product, would they eliminate the team? You may save a little money by not subsidizing the franchise, but you're already paying $50 million a year for the rights to the league as it is. Compared to the billions the NFL rights cost, that's a bargain, even when you factor in any losses incurred on the Argos! Viewer per viewer, there's a far greater ROI on the CFL than there is the NFL from the TV perspective.

Third, yes, technically there would still be a team in the Toronto metropolitan area—the Hamilton Tiger-Cats (disclaimer: I am a Ticats fan and have been since I picked up the games on a black-and-white rabbit ears as a teenager). Who are the Ticats' biggest rivals? The Argos. So all of a sudden, you deflate one of the biggest rivalries in the league.

Then you factor in: Montreal, one of the other big markets, just barely avoided collapse, which would be their third... and we have no idea how stable the ownership they scrambled to find really is. They could be another Glieberman (he was the guy who twice ran Ottawa into the ground). All of a sudden, you've completely destabilized the entire CFL. Then what?

All of a sudden, you're left with a bunch of small, mostly Western markets—one of whom, Winnipeg, is arguably operating illegally given its dubious ownership structure or lack thereof. As a serious professional league, the CFL would effectively be done. It'd be semi-pro, limping along on tradition.
Many of us said this from the start. There are 9 teams, 3 big markets, 3 OKC/Jax sized markets, and 3 sub 1mm markets. I posted that at time of XFL/CFL merger talk. How the country watches and where is not quite apparent but in general that's the #s.
So Agreeing with you that CFL need the Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver triple yatzee to stay relevant.

MLSE wants Argos to fail IMO and make a run at an NFL team. The CFL is in their way. XFL was a bridge to kill off 3 down FB for MLSE.

Having said that for a country about 11% the size of the USA (1/9th) and smaller than California Pop wise, they do get solid CFL TV numbers comparing to ratings for sports in USA.

https://3downnation.com/2021/11/26/wors ... fl-season/

Averaging 450-500k viewers per game. In the usa that would translate to 4-5mm. Their TV deal in Canada does not reflect the ratings #'s.
I'm not sure I agree with MLSE wanting the CFL to fail. If they did, then why bother buying the franchise and losing $10+ million a year. Nobody else was lining up to buy the Argos. The league would have had to run the team until another suck..er owner lined up. MLSE runs Toronto and they can't make the Argos work. The question is, do Torontonians dismiss the CFL because it's minor league or because it's 3 down, "funny" football? I honestly believe it's the latter. The AHL Toronto Marlies draw more than the league average, even with the most popular NHL team playing nearby. I think fans will support a minor 4 down league as it's closer to the game they know and love, the NFL, as opposed to a league that is watched primarily by the "boomer" crowd.
The usual reasons - MONEY $$$ - NFL would be the mother lode.

I don't live in the Toronto area, but I don't think its because its 3 down FB (though that may play a part). MLSE hasn't promoted this Team/League. They only owned it since Jan 2018, didn't play in 2020. so this is there what 3 seasons of play including this shortened one. To get 4down FB in Toronto 3down has to go and that means fail. I can totally see them bail for XFL but only if XFL is spending big coin too. Look at that graphic above, they just don't promote it.
johnnyangryfuzzball
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Re: Semi-OT: Argos (possibly) finished in Toronto

Post by johnnyangryfuzzball »

laxtreme56 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:14 pm I'm not sure I agree with MLSE wanting the CFL to fail. If they did, then why bother buying the franchise and losing $10+ million a year. Nobody else was lining up to buy the Argos. The league would have had to run the team until another suck..er owner lined up. MLSE runs Toronto and they can't make the Argos work. The question is, do Torontonians dismiss the CFL because it's minor league or because it's 3 down, "funny" football? I honestly believe it's the latter. The AHL Toronto Marlies draw more than the league average, even with the most popular NHL team playing nearby. I think fans will support a minor 4 down league as it's closer to the game they know and love, the NFL, as opposed to a league that is watched primarily by the "boomer" crowd.
Remember about the Marlies, though. This is Canada we're talking about, and in Canada, hockey is king, with football second and lacrosse jockeying with curling for third.

Just because the NFL is what's big in America doesn't mean it's what's big in Canada. Plus, you have to realize that the NFL has its own issues with an aging fan base as the younger kids are more international and their parents are panicked about concussions. I don't really see what shifting to a 4-down, 100-yard field will improve.
laxtreme56
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Re: Semi-OT: Argos (possibly) finished in Toronto

Post by laxtreme56 »

CFL vs. NFL popularity in Ontario.
https://www.mintel.com/blog/canada/the- ... -cfls-turf

Among football fans in Ontario, half only watch the NFL compared to less than one-fifth who exclusively watch the CFL.

Nearly half of 18-44-year-old football fans watch the NFL but do not follow the CFL and only one-fifth are CFL-only fans.

This is why I still believe an NFL oriented minor league would draw better than "major league" Canadian style football. Which is also why the networks pay more for the NFL television rights in Canada than the CFL. The youth demo is more important than overall viewers.
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