XFL officially delays start until 2023

XFL Football discussion.
laxtreme56
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Re: XFL officially delays start until 2023

Post by laxtreme56 »

As the late Christopher Hitchens once said,"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." Sure, Fox is committed to showing the USFL, but what does that mean. Just a few short weeks ago I was able to watch European football (soccer) on Fox, a traveling pro lacrosse league on NBC, and the WNBA on CBS. If you went further down the sports networks you could also find Major League Rugby on the CBS Sports Network. Being on television is helpful, but it doesn't necessarily pay the bills. Brian Woods has a net worth of $5 million, to successfully run a startup football league, you're looking at $150-200 million in costs just to get it through the first season. With less than 8 months to kickoff the USFL has no teams, players, staff, venue leases, nor a single season ticket sold. This is going to make the AAF fiasco look like the Super Bowl in comparison.
4th&long
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Re: XFL officially delays start until 2023

Post by 4th&long »

laxtreme56 wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:29 pm As the late Christopher Hitchens once said,"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." Sure, Fox is committed to showing the USFL, but what does that mean. Just a few short weeks ago I was able to watch European football (soccer) on Fox, a traveling pro lacrosse league on NBC, and the WNBA on CBS. If you went further down the sports networks you could also find Major League Rugby on the CBS Sports Network. Being on television is helpful, but it doesn't necessarily pay the bills. Brian Woods has a net worth of $5 million, to successfully run a startup football league, you're looking at $150-200 million in costs just to get it through the first season. With less than 8 months to kickoff the USFL has no teams, players, staff, venue leases, nor a single season ticket sold. This is going to make the AAF fiasco look like the Super Bowl in comparison.
FOX is a minority owner in the USFL. FOX approached B Woods about the TSL, not the reverse. We don't know when the kick off is or when things got started on the league. And its made for TV, on a different budget.
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johnnyangryfuzzball
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Re: XFL officially delays start until 2023

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laxtreme56 wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:29 pm As the late Christopher Hitchens once said,"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." Sure, Fox is committed to showing the USFL, but what does that mean. Just a few short weeks ago I was able to watch European football (soccer) on Fox, a traveling pro lacrosse league on NBC, and the WNBA on CBS. If you went further down the sports networks you could also find Major League Rugby on the CBS Sports Network. Being on television is helpful, but it doesn't necessarily pay the bills. Brian Woods has a net worth of $5 million, to successfully run a startup football league, you're looking at $150-200 million in costs just to get it through the first season. With less than 8 months to kickoff the USFL has no teams, players, staff, venue leases, nor a single season ticket sold. This is going to make the AAF fiasco look like the Super Bowl in comparison.
Brian Woods already has a league—The Spring League. All he has to do, in theory, is slap the USFL brand on what already exists. Is it ideal? No. Is it what we expect from a bigger-time league? No. But it is what it is, and with Johnson and Garcia proving themselves liars about "months away" and promises of returning in 2022, that and FCF are what we're left with.
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johnnyangryfuzzball
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Re: XFL officially delays start until 2023

Post by johnnyangryfuzzball »

laxtreme56 wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:59 pm Starting a whole league in less than a years time is suicide, just ask the AAF or ask Brian Woods come next March. Now with 18+ months they can plan to sell 5k season tickets per market, hire a competent front office staff and marketing team, get a streaming deal and equipment supplier, and also keep in touch with the owners of Toronto and Montreal when they abandon the CFL in 2-3 years.
They're not supposed to be starting a whole league from scratch. They did not pay $15 million to start a league from scratch. They are supposed to have inherited some form of infrastructure that would allow them to transition seamlessly back to play after this pandemic.

I mean, if 2023 had been the plan all along, I've said it before: with the Olympics and the longer NFL season in February 2022, it wouldn't hurt that badly to skip 2022 and start over (which it'll have to do at that point). But they spent the past umpteen months dragging us along, pretending they were going to come back in 2022 (presumably with most of the same stuff in place from 2020 where Vince left it)... and that, in the words of Peter Griffin, grinds my gears.

Timing this to the collapse of the CFL talks, which were always a longshot, makes it look like the XFL was relying on them as a last-ditch effort to get back to playing. And now, they're going to lose pretty much all of their continuity, the continuity they desperately needed to maintain themselves as the XFL, not a bunch of posers who snatched up the XFL brand in a bankruptcy auction and only pay lip service to what it takes to actually run it.
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Re: XFL officially delays start until 2023

Post by GregParks »

Tank55 wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:03 pm Probably reading too much into it, but interesting that they used the phrase "international spring football" in there. Makes you wonder if the calendar was ultimately the breaking point, and either the XFL was unwilling to move out of February/March or the CFL unwilling to move out of September/October. Also makes you wonder if the XFL still has their sights set on something outside the US borders.
I looked at it as more of the latter; and that word certainly caught my eye in the release too. I'm sure it's no coincidence that they just happened to be talking with an international football league in the CFL, either.

Now, does this mean they want to be an "international" league in that they have teams/players from all over the globe, perhaps partnering with leagues in other countries like they attempted to do with the CFL? Or is it just that they want to make the XFL a global brand with a sizable reach and presence beyond our own borders? Or something in between?
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laxtreme56
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Re: XFL officially delays start until 2023

Post by laxtreme56 »

johnnyangryfuzzball wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:32 pm
laxtreme56 wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:59 pm Starting a whole league in less than a years time is suicide, just ask the AAF or ask Brian Woods come next March. Now with 18+ months they can plan to sell 5k season tickets per market, hire a competent front office staff and marketing team, get a streaming deal and equipment supplier, and also keep in touch with the owners of Toronto and Montreal when they abandon the CFL in 2-3 years.
They're not supposed to be starting a whole league from scratch. They did not pay $15 million to start a league from scratch. They are supposed to have inherited some form of infrastructure that would allow them to transition seamlessly back to play after this pandemic.

I mean, if 2023 had been the plan all along, I've said it before: with the Olympics and the longer NFL season in February 2022, it wouldn't hurt that badly to skip 2022 and start over (which it'll have to do at that point). But they spent the past umpteen months dragging us along, pretending they were going to come back in 2022 (presumably with most of the same stuff in place from 2020 where Vince left it)... and that, in the words of Peter Griffin, grinds my gears.

Timing this to the collapse of the CFL talks, which were always a longshot, makes it look like the XFL was relying on them as a last-ditch effort to get back to playing. And now, they're going to lose pretty much all of their continuity, the continuity they desperately needed to maintain themselves as the XFL, not a bunch of posers who snatched up the XFL brand in a bankruptcy auction and only pay lip service to what it takes to actually run it.

That 15 million paid for the XFL 1.0 and 2.0 IP's and leftover equipment and supplies. Lease deals would need to be renegotiated, coaches and front office staff re-signed, sponsorship deals and advertisers renewed, as well as insurance, workmans comp. and a plethora of other issues to be negotiated. You could buy the rights to the NY Cosmos for a song, but that doesn't mean you inherit Pele in his prime or the 40k fans the team averaged at the old Giants stadium. As for the CFL, I agree it was a long shot, but a shot worth taking. I wouldn't be surprised if the owners from Toronto and Montreal don't coming knocking on the door in 2-3 years. The CFL is dead and buried in those markets and it's only a matter of time before ownership puts the keys on the table and turn out the lights on their ailing franchises. The average MLS team takes 2-4 years from announcement until they hit the pitch. The last few teams have sold out their season ticket allotments and doing gangbusters in merchandise sales and sponsorship. Slow, organic growth is what we need, not another underfunded rush job that ends in disaster.
laxtreme56
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Re: XFL officially delays start until 2023

Post by laxtreme56 »

4th&long wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:22 pm
laxtreme56 wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:29 pm As the late Christopher Hitchens once said,"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." Sure, Fox is committed to showing the USFL, but what does that mean. Just a few short weeks ago I was able to watch European football (soccer) on Fox, a traveling pro lacrosse league on NBC, and the WNBA on CBS. If you went further down the sports networks you could also find Major League Rugby on the CBS Sports Network. Being on television is helpful, but it doesn't necessarily pay the bills. Brian Woods has a net worth of $5 million, to successfully run a startup football league, you're looking at $150-200 million in costs just to get it through the first season. With less than 8 months to kickoff the USFL has no teams, players, staff, venue leases, nor a single season ticket sold. This is going to make the AAF fiasco look like the Super Bowl in comparison.
FOX is a minority owner in the USFL. FOX approached B Woods about the TSL, not the reverse. We don't know when the kick off is or when things got started on the league. And its made for TV, on a different budget.
NBC also approached the PLL, with the often heard line "lacrosse is the next big thing." While I'm not arguing that Fox is a minority owner, that still means a whole lot of nothing. As said before networks have partially owned leagues in the past; AFL, MLL, X-Games, Slamball and all are either long gone, or in the X-games case desperately trying to sell it at all costs. If Fox is willing to shell out $100 million in upfront costs then I can see the USFL having a chance, if they're covering production costs, splitting ad revenue, and giving away a few commercial spots in non-primetime spots it's no different than the other Mickey Mouse leagues shown in the dog days of summer.
laxtreme56
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Re: XFL officially delays start until 2023

Post by laxtreme56 »

Just to show how little network ownership in a league means, here's the first google result from "when ESPN owned the arena football league."

December 19, 2006
On December 19, 2006, ESPN announced the purchase of a minority stake in the AFL. This deal included television rights for the ESPN family of networks. ESPN would televise a minimum of 17 regular season games, most on Monday nights, and nine playoff games, including ArenaBowl XXI on ABC.


The AFL would fold less than 2 years later. ESPN was first in line in bankruptcy court.
4th&long
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Re: XFL officially delays start until 2023

Post by 4th&long »

johnnyangryfuzzball wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:32 pm
laxtreme56 wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:59 pm Starting a whole league in less than a years time is suicide, just ask the AAF or ask Brian Woods come next March. Now with 18+ months they can plan to sell 5k season tickets per market, hire a competent front office staff and marketing team, get a streaming deal and equipment supplier, and also keep in touch with the owners of Toronto and Montreal when they abandon the CFL in 2-3 years.
They're not supposed to be starting a whole league from scratch. They did not pay $15 million to start a league from scratch. They are supposed to have inherited some form of infrastructure that would allow them to transition seamlessly back to play after this pandemic.

I mean, if 2023 had been the plan all along, I've said it before: with the Olympics and the longer NFL season in February 2022, it wouldn't hurt that badly to skip 2022 and start over (which it'll have to do at that point). But they spent the past umpteen months dragging us along, pretending they were going to come back in 2022 (presumably with most of the same stuff in place from 2020 where Vince left it)... and that, in the words of Peter Griffin, grinds my gears.

Timing this to the collapse of the CFL talks, which were always a longshot, makes it look like the XFL was relying on them as a last-ditch effort to get back to playing. And now, they're going to lose pretty much all of their continuity, the continuity they desperately needed to maintain themselves as the XFL, not a bunch of posers who snatched up the XFL brand in a bankruptcy auction and only pay lip service to what it takes to actually run it.
This I agree with. Especially what you call the "continuity" that they despartaely needed to maintain, and did not. Its why they needed a hybrid bubble / short season in 2021. Not even 2022, really in 2021. They clearly were expecting $$ to be coming their way in large amounts - and when it did not, they held off on 2021 and 2022 plans (yes both) and went looking for someone elses money. What value does a league with 5 weeks of play 3 years ago have?

DG had said "we need a lucrative tv contract" to proceed. Well guess what, they STILL don't and by putting 2022 on "hold" who is going to give them the $$ now? FOX is no longer an option, NBC is scaling back sports, ESPN/ABC has now got MLB/NBA and NHL, Warner media now has the same. That leaves a scaled down NBC and CBS.

IMO - sell the rights to name to USFL or work with them in some way as an XFL - USFL partnership makes more sense than a CFL-XFL one ever could.

The good news is, and what I feared, did not happen. The XFL bs did NOT c##k block another league's attempt. We actually had a TSL season and USFL was announced, on air by Fox multiple times. A YEAR OUT for launch. That's good.

We are looking at 4 years now of Spring FB. AAF 2019, XFL 2020, TSL 2021, USFL 2021 - let's hope USFL sticks. The XFL is going to need to open its wallet if they are going to move forward.
4th&long
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Re: XFL officially delays start until 2023

Post by 4th&long »

laxtreme56 wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:03 am
4th&long wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:22 pm
laxtreme56 wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:29 pm As the late Christopher Hitchens once said,"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." Sure, Fox is committed to showing the USFL, but what does that mean. Just a few short weeks ago I was able to watch European football (soccer) on Fox, a traveling pro lacrosse league on NBC, and the WNBA on CBS. If you went further down the sports networks you could also find Major League Rugby on the CBS Sports Network. Being on television is helpful, but it doesn't necessarily pay the bills. Brian Woods has a net worth of $5 million, to successfully run a startup football league, you're looking at $150-200 million in costs just to get it through the first season. With less than 8 months to kickoff the USFL has no teams, players, staff, venue leases, nor a single season ticket sold. This is going to make the AAF fiasco look like the Super Bowl in comparison.
FOX is a minority owner in the USFL. FOX approached B Woods about the TSL, not the reverse. We don't know when the kick off is or when things got started on the league. And its made for TV, on a different budget.
NBC also approached the PLL, with the often heard line "lacrosse is the next big thing." While I'm not arguing that Fox is a minority owner, that still means a whole lot of nothing. As said before networks have partially owned leagues in the past; AFL, MLL, X-Games, Slamball and all are either long gone, or in the X-games case desperately trying to sell it at all costs. If Fox is willing to shell out $100 million in upfront costs then I can see the USFL having a chance, if they're covering production costs, splitting ad revenue, and giving away a few commercial spots in non-primetime spots it's no different than the other Mickey Mouse leagues shown in the dog days of summer.
You may or may not be correct. My Point is FOX is driving the push to a USFL and season in 2022. They made the TSL on FOX a reality just as much if not more than Woods. The USFL will not be a high cost league, its not XFL 2.0, and I reallly lik XFL 2.0. It was a major disappointment when VM folded it and more so when he was blocked buying back. We'll see if XFL can pull a rabbit out of the hat or not.
Fox needs low cost programming in sports. They can also capitalize on sports betting. I'm hopeful but nothing is guaranteed.
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