Majority investor: Alliance of American Football in danger of being discontinued without NFLPA help

Forum for XFL fans to discuss the Alliance of American Football.
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Re: Majority investor: Alliance of American Football in danger of being discontinued without NFLPA help

Post by XFL_FAN »

Andibald wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:37 pm
XFL_FAN wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:49 pm The quote from Dundon kind of seems like a request to the NFL. Like he's saying "You want a minor league NFL? Then help us out, because we're in a bad place." Hopefully the NFL will try to help out. AAF spring football is better than no spring football.
Don't forget about the XFL. They start up next year :) .

The NFL helping out the AAF will be the nail in the coffin for me. My AAF excitement is on life support as it is. I never could really buy into the league because of the "NFL minor league" feeling it gave me. Now it's more than a feeling. Rugby and the IFL will get me through this spring and I'll be ready to go all in with the XFL next year!
I'm not rooting against the AAF, but I'm also not really rooting for it. Now the XFL on the other hand, I'm rooting for it all the way!
Playoffs are still in sight ;)
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Re: Majority investor: Alliance of American Football in danger of being discontinued without NFLPA help

Post by Tank55 »

Wait a minute, your original position was that they were going to string the AAF along until the XFL disappeared and then they were going pull out:
youngorst wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:46 pmAs for it being super expensive, that is why the NFL will abandon the AAF (or make massive structural changes to make it less expensive) once the XFL is out of the picture, just as they abandoned the WLAF as soon at the PSFL was gone.
But now the primary goal is to run a developmental league and hurting the XFL is only a side benefit? My mind's not closed; I'm on this board because I like discussing and learning about this stuff. But surely you see how you're moving the goalposts on this.

I'm of the opinion that if the NFL wanted an out-of-season developmental league, they'd still be funding NFL Europe, which also served an important marketing function. But if they really did want a D-League, I don't see how acquiring the AAF would be better from starting from scratch. The AAF is locked into leases and other contracts (and has pending lawsuits!) that the NFL surely won't want to assume.

Fortunately, we don't have to argue. We'll see whether the NFL steps up or not.
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Re: Majority investor: Alliance of American Football in danger of being discontinued without NFLPA help

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The AAF wasn't built to be a minor league; that was a pivot once they started seeing the revenue streams. They're locked into leases at major league stadiums, paying coaches major league salaries, etc.

We don't know that the NFL is ready to step up. Passing the buck to the NFLPA is consistent with just stringing the AAF for as long as possible. Even then, note that without a change to the CBA, the NFLPA allowing practice squad players to play non-NFL football leagues means that those players are available to the XFL as well.
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Re: Majority investor: Alliance of American Football in danger of being discontinued without NFLPA help

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Tank55 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:40 pm The AAF wasn't built to be a minor league; that was a pivot once they started seeing the revenue streams. They're locked into leases at major league stadiums, paying coaches major league salaries, etc.

We don't know that the NFL is ready to step up. Passing the buck to the NFLPA is consistent with just stringing the AAF for as long as possible. Even then, note that without a change to the CBA, the NFLPA allowing practice squad players to play non-NFL football leagues means that those players are available to the XFL as well.
This is what I saw as the mistake as from a business stand point. I felt like from day one that seemed to have kept changing there minds on what they where. First they wanted to be major league with the promise of exciting new innovative ways to have fans being involved. Like the whole live play by play bet placing and ext. Then they said and this is where it changed and I felt changed how the fans viewed the league. Going from saying we want to be professional to a minor league system with the NFL. I felt that because they seem to be unsure what they wanted to be, they didn't have a business model that fit that. Which is why it was put together as a major league with coaches and ext but after that it was changed. If they wanted the NFL being involved beyond just a time slot on the network, they should have all they known early and if the NFL wasn't interested, they could planned better for it.

Instead we got this mess. I do feel like there is a market for Spring football. However the reason why all these leagues seem to fall flat is lack of having a plan and sticking with it and having all the ducks lined up before you start. The XFL I hope is doing a lot we don't know in this two years they gave themselves to be truly ready in 2020 and have a plan to last.
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Re: Majority investor: Alliance of American Football in danger of being discontinued without NFLPA help

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https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports ... 3607002/
The coach and other members of the Hotshots' organization said the dispute is not between the AAF and the NFLPA. It's between the league's majority owner and its co-founder, Bill Polian.

"I got word from (Polian's) camp about this particular issue saying, 'do not worry about what is being said in the paper. Business is going on as usual,' " Neuheisel said. "They assured all of us to press on."


Polian, Dundon and Neuheisel, for that matter, all agree that the future of the AAF is player development and want the league to become a farm system for the NFL.

"A football fan sees a beautiful synergy between this league and the NFL," Neuheisel said. "To get players into a training ground so that the NFL can see them playing their brand of football, you need to bring them into a place that can do that, like baseball's AAA."

The parties disagree, however, on the speed with which that dream should become a reality.
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Re: Majority investor: Alliance of American Football in danger of being discontinued without NFLPA help

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Andibald wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:10 pm
Polian, Dundon and Neuheisel, for that matter, all agree that the future of the AAF is player development and want the league to become a farm system for the NFL.

"A football fan sees a beautiful synergy between this league and the NFL," Neuheisel said. "To get players into a training ground so that the NFL can see them playing their brand of football, you need to bring them into a place that can do that, like baseball's AAA."
This does not make me want to follow this league. I had a feeling it was heading that way, even from the start, even though it wasn't stated until recently. I would rather see players who don't fit "their (NFL) brand of football" play multiple years in the XFL than new players every year or two in the AAF trying to get reps. I understand the reality is the XFL will be looked at somewhat as a developmental league as well but I hope they don't ever make it their goal, especially publicly.
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Re: Majority investor: Alliance of American Football in danger of being discontinued without NFLPA help

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https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/ ... -leagues/
Should the union help the new developmental leagues to develop current NFL players?

The NFL-NFLPA labor deal pays players based on seniority, with a higher minimum salary triggered by greater years of experience. The longer a player has played, the more expensive he becomes.

This creates a natural inclination for teams to skew younger, if they can justify entrusting a roster spot to someone with limited experience. A developmental league gives those inexperienced players live reps, making those players better (in theory) and in turn making it easier for NFL teams to justify rolling the dice with one of the 53 jobs on a player who has fewer years of NFL service and thus a lower price.

So if the NFL and the NFLPA agree to make players who have signed “futures” contracts available to developmental leagues like the AAF or the XFL and if those younger players indeed develop in developmental leagues, those younger, cheaper players may supplant older, more expensive ones.

Even though union dues aren’t based on a percentage of a player’s salary, it generally makes sense for the union to want teams to pay as much as possible to its players. Developmental leagues tend to cut against that dynamic, giving the NFLPA no real reason to support a system that makes it harder for established, proven players to fend off their inevitable replacement by a player whose youth allows him to move faster, jump higher, push harder, and basically perform the various requirements of the job better.

That’s not to say the NFLPA should work against developmental leagues. But the perception that developmental leagues are good for the NFL isn’t necessarily a reality for the NFLPA, since there will still be only 53 roster spots per team, no matter how many chances the players competing for those jobs have to develop their skills beyond the confines of NFL offseason workouts, preseason training camp, in-season practices, and game reps.
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Re: Majority investor: Alliance of American Football in danger of being discontinued without NFLPA help

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OK, but even if we set aside their intentions, the fact that they have made these foolish moves means that's now something the NFL would have to assume.

The Sun Belt is paying its coaches to win games. The NFL would be paying these coaches to develop players. How do you think NBA G-League head coaching salaries compare to Sun Belt basketball head coaching salaries?
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Re: Majority investor: Alliance of American Football in danger of being discontinued without NFLPA help

Post by steinerfhc »

Front what I am seeing, it doesn't sound good for the AAF since it doesn't sound like the NFLPA is going to do anything and that what the AAF is banking on to keep going. The best bet now is that the XFL does well as a stand alone and focus on being successful as a stand alone. I do think there is a market for football players that don't want to go to Canada but still want to play full field football and not arena style.

The issue I have seen with these spring leagues is a business plan to backup what they want. From a plan or enough capital beyond it. You have to be ready to take a loss because the first year to turn profit is unlikely because the cost to getting it all put together. Even if you sellout all games and whatever. You need to build the fanbase and identity for the league. Getting people to understand that this isn't the same XFL we had in 01 but a legit pro league and not "Sports entertainment in a football field". Hopefully the XFL can work and than the markets the AAF was in could get XFL teams because I do believe the cities where good choices. It's a shame the AAF wasn't fully prepared as a business.
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Re: Majority investor: Alliance of American Football in danger of being discontinued without NFLPA help

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youngorst wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:41 pmThe NFL only assumes these costs if they plan to buy the AAF out. I've made no such claim. And honestly don't think that is likely to happen. The NFL's investment would likely be limited to TV and paying the players they send to the league. Nothing more. Much like the relationship most NHL teams have with their AHL affiliate.
Your claim, at least at one point, was that the NFL ought to put in "a few million bucks (even if it were as much as 10-15 million) per NFL team."
youngorst wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:41 pmAs for you comparison to basketball, I can't find G-League coaching salaries but have you ever looked at how much the bottom of division 1 basketball pays its coaches? At the bottom end of division 1 basketball coaches aren't making nearly what the bottom end of FBS coaches make.
The link below says no one was making over $100K in the G-League as of 2014. After a quick glance, it appears that Sun Belt coaches are making in the $400K range.

https://www.ridiculousupside.com/2014/6 ... s-get-paid

I root for a D-I bottom feeder. We just fired our coach making ~$300K a season with a $1.7 million buyout. Rumors are the next guy will be making ~$700K. It's serious money.
youngorst wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:41 pmI also would like to point out that player development is always a loss for teams. I'm not really sure why so many people act like the NFL is the only sport that would require making a profit off its minor league. Make no mistake, NFL Europe was cancelled partially because of the losses but that does not mean the NFL must make a profit off of the AAF to keep the NFL involved; the losses just need to be mitigated. Not owning the teams mitigates those losses for the NFL.
We focus on the cost because a) the NFL shut down NFL Europe over losses in the range of what you advocated for above and b) the current system is working just fine for the NFL. They're pulling in record profits, even with Josh Johnson wandering off the street to play quarterback for three games. Why should they sink another dime into development? What's the problem (from the league's perspective) that the AAF is solving?
youngorst wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:41 pmI'd also like to talk about the point being made about players being available to the XFL as well. I think the NFL would be perfectly fine with that. I think the NFL would be just fine with providing access to players to both leagues. The NFL just doesn't want either league to be seen as anything more than a minor league for them. The XFL would be wise to say no to such a relationship.
Maybe. I don't think MLS has suffered from the loan system in soccer, although that's certainly not apples to apples. I think as long as XFL teams are trying to win the XFL championship, they'll be fine. But I see your point.
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